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"Mango Tapes one" A recorded chat between Wilf Ryan, Madryn
(Abersoch later), Lewis Jones, (Llanbedrog then),
Frondeg, Rhiw, and Huw Jones, Tegfan, Hebron, concerning the manganese
mines of Rhiw. Lewis Jones was 90 in
1980, when the recording was
made, Wilf Ryan would be 63.
Lewis Jones was born in 1890,
left school in 1903,
at 13 years of age, got his driving licence in
1912. Monday 29th.
September 1980.
This is from Huw Jones, who possibly will tell us something about the
manganese mines. Do you know it? That’s
all that’s left, it’s in a bit of a hollow, it looks like an old shaft down
there, it’s been filled-in, and be one that Lewis might remember.
It looks like the old winding gear, doesn’t it?
It looks like the old winding gear, doesn’t it? Yes, it looks very much like it. Or a wheel, it could have been a wheel. A winding wheel rather, see the size of it. Which? It looks like a wire rope has been on that, doesn’t
it. On this one look, it’s an axle anyway, and there’s
holes in it as well, two holes, four holes really, what’s on top there? That’s Rhiw at the top, Mynydd Graig. It is Mynydd Graig. No, on your left more. This is not a house or anything, it’s just a hut, I
think, isn’t it? No there is a
house, I’ll tell you what it is, Bryntirion, a hen Gwt Costgard, ia, mae’n
rhaid bod hwn wedi ei dynnu yn ymyl ni rwla, ia, Bryntirion ydi hwnna, I bet you
anything you like that’s Bryntirion, a Bryngola fan yma hyn, not that one,
this one on the hill. O ia. That’s the old Gwn Mawr, Gwn Mawr thing, life-saving
thing. Oh, that’s the life-saving thing, is it? I see. And this is near Tyn Fron, it must be, Tyn Fron it is. That’s very high up that is, on the top level, top
level of all the workings. This is an axle. Yes, it must have been a wheel. That’s right, spokes and hub, winding shaft. Maybe, well, the old mines are further. See that. They’re this way. That’s right, lower down, this is very near the top.
Keep going a bit further along you came to the old working, the
blue-black is manganese ore, the rest is shale, that’s a bit further along, I
don’t know if you remember that, but down in this hollow there, there is loose
rock, it breaks very easy. It is not by the road, is it? No, you’re carrying on away from the road now, past
that shaft that we saw, a bit further on than that, there has obviously been
some workings there, that’s probably the first workings, feeding in to the
Hell’s Mouth part, many years ago I think, on the rope-way, it’s obviously
been filled in, and in those rocks, on the left. The sea, of course you can see the sea. It’s the north coast, the sea in the distance.
I found some fossils in those rocks at the bottom there.
I said “There are no fossils around here, not in this part of the
world,” the little boy said, “What’s this?” and they were fossils.
That taught me not to be so dogmatic. That’s an old, very old boiler, as far as I know,
that’s part of a steam engine, where is it?
Nant Gadwen, isn’t it? No, same
place, we’re still on the top, between the last two, I think. That’s an old boiler, there were two of them there at
one time, they have funny names, English names, that’s all that’s left now. Are they still there? Yes, I took these about three months ago, that’s all
that’s left, it’s a First World War one, and the other one was taken away
about 1920, I think, it’s in the records, the chap in charge of the
course gave me a note about it. You
don’t know anything about that one, do you? No. Now there is the view from just near there, looking
across to the north, to the coast, you can see the sea in the distance, and on
your right you can see the drum, can you see it? Right in the middle, we’ll have another picture of the drum
in a minute, that’s it, that’s the big drum, Huw, that is still there,
it’s dead straight across there, so it’s obviously an old tramway, going
right across, so I must think that this mine was worked in the First World War,
perhaps the Second World War, certainly the first, and the ore was taken over to
the drum on the tramway, you can see the marks, you can’t see too clearly on
that, but it is so straight, there’s not much doubt about that, that’s the
old winch Huw, how was this operated?
Was it the weight of the one dram? Yes, the full one takes the empty one up back.
That’s the Mynydd Bodwyddog side isn’t it? It looks down the field there, through the opening to
the bottom, can you see it? The
farm at the bottom, see it now, that’s right. Bodwyddog. .
. Is this one near the Chapel? That’s it, the Chapel is on the left, not very far
away, just out of sight actually. It’s right opposite Bodwyddog, isn’t it? That’s right, and it goes down, looking down you can
see, in the grass, parts of the old tramline. It goes past that farm down to Nant Gadwan. I took two
pictures, this was taken from the other side, just to show you the great drum
there, and one of the bearings, has been taken off, half of the top part of the
bearing, down the other side the bearing is still there look, now that’s
brass. Oh, yes. Worth a bit of money that brass.
There’s the view down, look. And
I took that because you could see at the time the mark of the old tramway right
past the car, through the field down, through the gate. That’s right, straight on. It’s a different colour, but it doesn’t show up on
the film, a bit under-exposed. I
also wanted to show the people, I wanted to show them, the party, what it was
like, and I think, you come to Llyn, where it is lovely sunshine always, even if
it’s cloudy in the morning, it’s sunshine in the afternoon;
we came, it was mist, solid, thick fog, all day, they didn’t see a
thing, they couldn’t take any photos, it wasn’t good enough to take
pictures, this one of Tanyfoel, beautiful views, Bardsey in the distance, I
showed them this picture, to see what it was like, not a bloody thing, but there
we are, it’s a chance. There’s
the tramway crossing the road, it’s still there, that’s on the road where
the car was stopped, and people who were experts on these things knew from the
tramlines that they were a special sort. They
appear later on too, I think, now there’s the last workings. By the road. They used to load.
. . Yes, the loading bay. O dan Capel Wesla, fan ‘na. Near Capel Pisgah, up on the left hand side, there’s a
bit of spoil heap of the old ore, and there was some clinker there, and I
couldn’t think of a good reason why it should be there, there used to be a
crusher behind there, crushing the ore, but that was diesel-driven, I remember
that from what Wil Efail Rhos told me, because he worked there, and of course I
asked him the other day the cause of the clinker, and he told me of the
blacksmith’s shop, I’d forgotten all about the blacksmith’s shop.
Well, there’s the site from the other side, and that concrete. That’s behind. That’s right. The crusher was on those two heavy pillars there, and
this concrete base there, is covering the shaft, at the moment there are two
other things on the site, but that’s about the only thing on the site that you
can see. You can drop a stone down
the side and hear it hit the water. Do
you remember that one Huw? No, I
wasn’t there at that time, I remember it working of course, but when we used
to, . . . when we started, it was
more to the left of this one. Oh, yes. Is there anything left there now? On the other side of the road, isn’t it? No, higher up. Higher up? Yes, this way, higher up to the mountain, to the left of
this one. Not that I know of. That’s right, there can’t be. No, No. Do you mean up towards the Radar station, Mr. Jones? Oh no. The other side. At the top of the field it was. It may well be, I don’t know for sure. Yes, I remember we made a concrete for the winch and
everything there, and fixed an old engine there. Was it you? Yes. I must take you up there. You could show me. Lewis could tell you all the history, of all them, he
was there when this was working and all, and he was there taking that engine
from Porth Ysgo. Higher up than this one. It’s higher up, and a bit to the left. I see, I haven’t got
a picture of that, so there’s nothing much to see there. I don’t know whether the concrete base is still there,
for the old engine. There are little bits of concrete all around the site,
but I don’t know what they are exactly. Where we started was a little bit more to the left of
this one. I see, I’ll have to take a few more pictures and get
it right. There’s another view of
the site, that’s the concrete base again, this is to the left, if you like,
now the blacksmith’s shop was over to the left, could be around there
somewhere. The blacksmith’s shop was on top, where we were. That’s right. Where would the engine be? Well, somewhere around there. Not far from the blacksmith’s ahop. Just there then? Is the blacksmith’s shop still there, is it? No, no that’s all that there is, there’s not much to
see at all. That’s it, it’s
important to get a record of this before everybody forgets about it.
There must be more pictures around somewhere.
It could be right, that’s where the engine is. I remember we made a base for the engine and the winch
and everything. For this site, was it?
Was it for this shaft? Or
for another shaft? A bit more to the left, towards the loading bay. I see. So there’s another shaft somewhere? Aye. I rather think there is.
It means another journey to Rhiw. This is down towards Porth Ysgo, and this is the
tramline, that’s the wall. You didn’t see an entrance, a level going in, did you? We’ll have look in a minute, where would it be?
Do you know Porth Ysgo now? You
go through the gate. Aye. And this is almost immediately after you go through the
gate, on your left. O yea. And this footpath on the right. It’s a bit lower down. Have a look at this then. Would that be it? This is not in Rhiw now? No, Porth Ysgo. This is Nant Gadwan, isn’t it? That’s right. Well I’ve been in this one many times.
There used to be an old oil engine there, didn’t it? We took that off. Was that where the engine came from you were telling us
about? Yes, from near here.
There is another one lower down, you see. From one of those two shafts, is it? It wasn’t in the shaft. No. It was
outside one of these, I’m not sure which one.
I’ve been in this one many times when I was a kid you know. You wouldn’t go in it now. We used to go there. It’s a bit deep down there. There’s an old .
. . on the same level, on
the road down to Porth Ysgo, there’s this old ruin.
I don’t know what’s that for. I don’t know what’s that. You don’t remember?
No, I just wondered whether it was an old engine shed of some sort. The engine shed was higher up, higher up than them,
towards the entrance really. Towards Nant? About half-way, the engine would be, half-way down from
Nant to them two shafts. Ah, I see, among them. I remember it very well. There’s hardly anything left, you know, they’ve
closed the entrances now I’m sure. Oh, probably yes, it would be wise to, you see. They’d be dangerous.. But I remember the engine house very well. An old Lister, a great big Lister. I can’t remember what it was. International it was. The fly-wheel was about a ton in weight, I remember
that. One fly-wheel. Yes,
one fly-wheel, that’s all you want. With a what-do-you-call-it, a blowlamp to start it. A big blowlamp. You
warmed up the cylinder. And then how did you turn the fly-wheel?
By hand? By hand, yes, only one half of a turn, and she was away.
Off she went. Pushing the
vapour up, and for the rest it was chu. . .
chu. . . Fired first time, did it? Always. You
had to have it at the right temperature, with them, then you only had to spit,
tchu, like that, and if it
was frying, it was alright. Ha, ha. If it compresses backwards, if it went over, it fired
back, just compress it backwards, turn the fly-wheel backwards until you got
compression, then, pht,
it would start, off it went. And
if it was too hot, it would stop on compression and turn back, you had to have
it just right, didn’t you? Back-fired somehow. But as I told you, you get the trick, spit at the right
time and you’re alright, are you? I know those engines are all right, as good as any. About 1940
or something that we took that engine out. Remember us once going to Huw Crindir, that was a
Crossley, wasn’t it? Yes. Then we went there and that wouldn’t start, there was
something wrong or something, I don’t know, I don’t know what was wrong with
it, it started anyway. It smoked
away, I’ve never seen so much smoke. You heated it up with a blow-lamp, and when you got it
to the right temperature you spat on it, if it spat back at you, you knew it was
alright, you shoved it round by hand, then it was turning. If it fired you know, you knew it was alright. Where’s that now? That’s lower down now, just above Porth Ysgo. Ah, yes. It’s the last stage almost. Oh, yes. And
the trams would obviously be taken from here, down a steep slope. And there used to be a stage there. Stage, yes, that’s right. That’s gone now, I remember that too. Well, the one we’ve just seen is right at the top.
The old stage is right at the top and it came down here, and they
transferred to the new stage here on the right, and the building on the extreme
right is the old office, I think. Oh yea. There’s the old stage that was close to the jetty, was
it? Yes, from there, a few yards from the jetty, and it went
right down to the jetty, see, there is the jetty, down that steep slope.
There is only one stake left of the jetty there. That used to go far into the sea, you know. Did it now? Yes, very far, remember,
you know, Ellis Ty Hywel, he used to go and jump from the far end of the
stage, he’d jump down and swim back to Porth Ysgo. Really! Did he? I couldn’t do it, oh, oh, I didn’t do it, but this
Ellis, you know, Ellis Ty Hywel, he got killed during the war, he could do it
easily, he was a good swimmer. No,
I never chanced it. Well, that’s the whole story actually.
That’s what I’ve got on the .
. . Thank you very much, that’s a nice story, Wilf. If you could find Lewis, you’d get all the history,
the First World War to the last one. We’d best go and find him. And we started the thing with that solicitor from
Pwllheli, Roger Prys. The last one, wasn’t it.
You had the first chance there with the lorry, instead of Twm Penbont. Yes. You had the first chance. To carry to Pwllheli. The
last war that was. Yes, if I had a lorry, I could have the job, but T.M.
Jones from Sarn had it, and he made a fortune out of it. But you had a chance for it when you were fitting the
engine or something. Yes, I was moving the engine, we took it from, from the
old shaft, the old mine down. Yes, and it had been there since the First World War.
It was all greased when we went there.
Lewis was the chief, of course, he knew everything about it, I didn’t
know anything about it, but I had to go there, and took it out with him. Yes. So the
first mines to be used were the ones down at Nant Gadwan. Yes, yes. That’s the reverse to what it says in the book you
see. There’s not much written
down about this, and I said, my thinking that the Welsh are not so daft as to
carry stuff three miles from Rhiw, down there when they’ve got it near the
bottom, that’s right, isn’t it? That’s right. And the trouble was in Nant Gadwan was the water, you
see. Yes, yes. And they had to pump the water all the time, that engine
was pumping water all the time there. That
was its main job, wasn’t it? And
working the winch, of course. I see. And the Canadians went there and they tried to bore from
the sea-shore, from the bottom, to drain the water out.
But it was too far, if they could have drained the mine, they could carry
on then, couldn’t they? But they
couldn’t get the water out of there. They
drilled for weeks there, do you remember, Robert? They had diamond drills.
And you could get a stick of rock like that, about three inches. Now Conion’s got a verse, you know, my taid and
Robin’s taid (laughter), not taid wyddost ti, yr hen Abram, Abram, your
grandmother’s brother, wasn’t he Out of the Bible, I suppose? Oh, duw, no. Old
Abram, he used to get drunk and that, didn’t he, and a sailor came from the
ship there, quarrelled with the captain, Owen Conion knows the story, he told
me, and they put him to work with this Abram, and he used to make verses, he was
a bit of a bardd, I can’t remember it, but Now Conion remembers it, but I
can’t. Robert Williams is no good. . . . And this sailor was terrible for women you see, oh ! oh
! ha, ha. A Welshman? No, he wasn’t a Welshman, the sailor was a Scotchman,
and they made a verse, they do have fun together, they used to in a community
like that. This Abram, he said
something, he was for women and he was for beer you see, there is a verse, and
Now Conion knows the verse. Is it in English, or Welsh? Ew, I can’t remember, there is a name for that sailor
you see, there was a name, he was for women.
Bod nhw dipyn o law, a finna am faw. You say it was a solicitor from Pwllheli.that started in
the last war? Yes. Roger
Prys. Yes in the last war, and
then, once he got some manganese out of it you see, well, the Ministry took it
over then, and made, .
. I don’t know, put in a
big engine instead of the one we had started. Oh, I see, so your engine was taken away and replaced by
a diesel? Well I don’t know what happened to the old engine that
we took from Nant Gadwan, but it worked all right The one from Nant Gadwan was by Capel Pisgah, wasn’t
it? Higher up, there was an old blacksmith’s shop, higher
up, you see. Yes, I don’t know if that is there still. Well, there may be a few. There was a new blacksmith’s shop later on, I’m
sure, by the Chapel, this was, - do you know where there’s a little
small-holding on your right as you go past the Chapel, there was a gate, and we
used to go through that gate. That gate is still there. And then it was on that level that we were working. Ah, I see. Is there some of the old building still there?
There’s some ruins there I’m sure, on that level. Well, it looks as if there has been something there,
it’s quite flat there. Ah. And there is a gate there. Ah. I
didn’t see anything, I didn’t know what to look for you see. Well, if you go through that gate, and carry on that
level, at these we were working then, you see. There’s another shaft somewhere then? Yes there was some shaft lower down.
Lewis used to do the rail-road down by the shaft, put the engine and the
winch to haul them up, you see. From the shaft? There was a shaft level going down to the earth like
that, went down, and this engine was pulling the trucks up that one, and then a
lorry from Sarn came and take them to the station, you see, oh, only about one
load a week ever had it. When the solicitor found out it was there all right,
well, the Ministry took it over then, well, he had a good deal I’m sure, he
was working all the time, he had something to do in the mine when it was going.
They had a big engine then, by the Chapel there, oh, I’m sure that was
an 80
to 100 horse power,
that big engine there. A big diesel engine? A diesel, that’s a big one; this old engine started it off, the one we fixed.
I’m sure the old concrete base and that are still there, and then we
took an old hay shed from by Bodantur there, the petrol station there, there was
a farm there, and we took the hay shed from there and fixed it in Rhiw over the
engine. Did you? What,
to protect it from the weather, yes, I see.
Was that the same side as Capel Pisgah?
Or was it the opposite side? No, it was the opposite side, go through this gate,
higher up by that small-holding, and there’s a flat there, isn’t there?
That’s right. Well, on the flat we were working, you see. I see. I haven’t
been there since. Oh, I must take you there one of these days. Lewis used to collect all their rails, you see,
everywhere, to get them to go down to this shaft, you see. Yes. What was Lewis, was he an engineer? No, he had been working with the engine in the old Nant
Gadwan, First War I think. Oh, so he’d remember the one that was taken out? Oh yes, he knew everything, where it was and everything,
he was with us taking it out, we had a job to get it out too, to get the
fly-wheel out of the level, Lewis knew all the doings of how to get it out, and
then the labourers dig a trench in the level, the fly-wheel was too big, they
had to make a trench That level was between Nant and the
. . . We used to go down to this place where the big engine
was, go down some steps, but there was a level coming out of it as well, you
see. I see. And through that level we got the engine and the
fly-wheel out, and then we had to make a special truck to get the engine, then
old Robert Thomas with his tractor, pulled it up to where we fixed it, you see.
This fellow from Pwllheli, oh, he did all right, I’m sure. The solicitor? Yes, he must have done.
So he owned the land at that point? Oh, no, but he had a permit or something. The mineral rights. Yes, I see. Once he could show them it was there, the Ministry took
it over then and supplied the fellow that carried them to Pwllheli, with lorries
and everything, there was three lorries three times a day.
And then T.M. went with then one day, the fellow running the lorries,
and he went with them, and he found out that he could make four loads
instead of three in a day. And then they had to make four loads to the station. So he was in trouble. He was thinking of buying a new lorry,
and what he did, he went with them for a day, so he saved having to buy
another lorry by doing another load, he saved on it. He was running that pub in Sarn, Penybont, and he made a
fortune alright out of it. Out of the lorries? Yes, the
lorries and Penybont. Yes, he was
the son of Penybont. He made some
money out of it, I’m sure. I’m sure he did. In the first war it was carried in ships, wasn’t it?
And the old steam wagons carrying too, in the First World War. The steam traction? Yes. Tell me, they would carry it to Pwllheli? Yes, to Pwllheli, from the top there by Capel Pisgah, it
was coming there you see. They didn’t work the Nant Gadwan, Porth Ysgo one in
the last war, but the water was the trouble, and the Canadians went there to try
and get the water out, if they could drill right from the bottom, the water
would come out, wouldn’t it. Nearly a quarter of a million tons of ore have been
taken out of the mines. Yes I’m sure. Those
lorries were carrying, how much were they carrying, how much were they carrying? Four or five tons I’m sure, each lorry, yes, five. Fi oedd yn claddu Sara Cocrwth. Ia? Ia. Yn lle marwodd hi, yn Cocrwth? Nace, efo, .
. yn Pisgah efo Ann,
yn Talyfan, mi fuo yn byw yn Pisgah, fan’no y marwodd hi, sdi. Ia? Yn Penbont oedd hi amsar hono, mi oedd i mab hi, Dafydd
Murpoeth, a nae o mo’i chladdu hi, aeth Robat Robaits ato fo a gofyn nae o i
chladdu hi, “Na nai wir, gei di i chladdu hi,” medda fynta, a wedyn, y
registrar claddodd hi. Talu a phob dim? Ia. Plwy, mewn ffordd?
Ia, dew, tewch, ‘dwi’n i chofio, mi fyddwn ni’n mynd i Rhiw efo
nain, a mynd draw am dro, a hitha yn ista. Yn Pisgah oedd hi amsar hono? Nage, yn Cocrwth. Dwn i ddim lle gythral mae Cocrwth. Cocrwth is past that place where you go to see the
Blakes. Yes. Further on than that, it is still up, is it, Guto? There is a little bit of it, just. I remember Sara Cocrwth sitting there by the fire, with
an open, big chimney, simdda fawr, big chimney like that.
And there’s another lttle place, Gimla, is that still there? Mm. Gimla. There’s Doctor. . . Yes, Doctor Emyr Wyn. You can’t go any further than Gimla, can you? You can walk to the headland. There’s another house. You can walk to Mynydd Penarfynydd that way. Oh ia, there’s
another house in that cut-away, what’s the name of that? Past Gimla?
I don’t know which way it goes. You can’t go past Gimla. There is a house between them and Penarfynydd, I don’t
know, what is that called? Cocrwth. That is Cocrwth? Yes
that is Cocrwth. There is a bit of that up still, yes, on the right as
you go down the path. I remember burying the old lady in
1924, I think. 1924? And
it was funny, a lot of these people came from shipwrecks, didn’t they? To Garth, yes. And then they mixed, you know. Hen Elin Cottage yn te.
Ydach chi’n chofio’i? Ydw’n duw, â’r hen Bostman Mawr, a Guto Cottage,
you know Kate Roberts. It carries very far you know, Idris’ daughter, she’s
very dark you know, Catrin Mary. Oh yes, Catrin Mary, yes, it’s carrying on very far. Mary is it, who works in the general store, the Spar,
she’s very dark, isn’t she? That’s Celtic, isn’t it. Mary Coch Moel, ia. There’s very few real Welsh around, you know,
they’re all a mixture, they’ve been mixed.
They’re Celts. And there’s the Abrams from the Bible, isn’t there. Yes, we came from the Bible, work today and drink
tomorrow. You rest for six days and work on the Sunday.
(much laughter). My mother told me that she never had a bit of meat until
she married, honestly now, only rabbit meat. Oh, they were poor. They couldn’t afford it, they could afford rabbit meat
for two or three pence, and your taid, your grandfather, he used to work in
Plasmenllech all his life nearly, and work. He’d be staying there for a week? Yes. Where’s that Bob, Plasmenllech? Near Tudweiliog. Oh, the big farm we passed today, yes. You turn towards Sarn, don’t you, it’s a big farm
there, he used to walk from Rhiw to the farm I’m sure. He was staying for the week. For a week, then he’d walk back again They’d sleep in the llofft stabal, as they used to
call it, a loft above the stable. Work
in the field half-past-five in the morning in the hay. End
of first
tape.
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